The Electra Forums

How's it going everybody? I thought I would log in and tell the story behind the awesome X420 Custom Pro VS (Vintage Sunburst)that I submitted to the gallery a couple of years ago.

After purchasing the guitar, I did some research on the net and came across this site. I emailed Mike and he was a great help in educating me on what I had. He contacted a source at St Louis Music and after a couple of communications, determined that this model was in fact a rare X420 Custom Pro Vintage Sunbust.

Little did I know at the time how rare this guitar is. After owning it for over two years I have yet to find another one ...on the web, or anywhere else. The black ones pop up here and there, but never the Vintage Sunburst. I periodically check in here, Google search, hit eBay, and spot check Harmony Central, but still haven't found another X420 VS.

I found the guitar in a pawn shop for $165.00. I gladly plunked down the money after noodling for a few minutes. At the time I had no idea what it was other than I knew of Electra guitars and had more knowledge of the Gibson 335...obviously.

The more I played it, the more impressed I was. It was obvious to me that it had been a working musician's guitar over the years. It was played but not abused. I brought it home, cleaned it, polished the frets, oiled the fretboard, and adjusted the intonation. The neck was straight as an arrow so I've never had the truss rod cover off. As explained in the pic's, a couple of updates were made before I owned it. A Gibson "Nashville" bridge which adds stability and probably increased sustain. A graphite nut, which I believe replaced an original brass one, and a Carvin M-22 was in the neck position. This guitar is truly great.

So after a couple years of owning it, and not a single hit on my periodic checking, I thought it would be interesting to check in here to get some experts opinions and maybe some further info on this guitar. If any of you can pass along something I appreciate it.

Thanks for your time,

Kyle Woods

All the Electras of this period are really wonderful guitars, and very solid and accurate. And the ones that are rare models like yours seem to have gotten extra treatment, because they were destined to be jewels in the music stores that carried the Electra line. I know people dispute the comparison with 'Custom Shop' instruments by famous brands, but that's really what some seem to be like. Take a great guitar and give it extra hours of TLC and the result is something you can feel. I'm sure if I played your guitar I'd sense it too, as I do in several of mine.

Hi Kyle. I saw your post recently -- right after I scored one on ebay!! It's not in the Gallery (yet), but can still be seen on ebay and for the next ~80 days or so (I guess) -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 7337838811

ebay knowledgable folks will know that if that link doesn't work for any reason, just search it under the item number (7337838811). After winning it, I came onto this site (which I've been snooping around on for some months now) and found your post. I would sure like to know how rare this guitar is, but I can tell you that at least in one sense, mine is quite rare. I always ask my sellers to give me any history or other information they might have, and this very nice fellow gave me a very interesting story on it. Turns out that he frequents a local music store and has for some years. The owner passed away 2 years ago after having run the store for many years. He was in the habit of putting a new guitar away every now and then for his (and his wife's) retirement. This was one of those guitars. After he passed away -- about a year ago -- his wife sold this guitar to someone who then needed some cash and sold it to my seller (I take it that he got it at a pretty good price). He promptly put it on ebay.

So the guitar is virtually brand new. It's your basic NOS but for the fact that this other fellow owned it for a year. There is not a mark on it but for the finish "bubble" he notes in his auction (actually, there are 2 of them).

I promptly researched all the reviews of "Lucille" guitars, and they all say that theirs is "the best sounding guitar I've ever played." And they rave about the playability as well. Most of the reviews pertain to the Gibson Lucille or it's little brother (the plainer model), but I think there are also a couple of reviews on the Electra black Lucille (the X420) at Harmony Central. They also rave about it. There are no reviews anywhere (that I've been able to find) of this particular model, the X420VS.

I completely agree about this guitar. It does seem that the "no F-holes" does something for the sound of it. Did B.B. King know something no one else knew? This became my favorite guitar after 2 minutes of playing time, even tho' the strings on it feel like they are also circa 1983. I can't wait to see how she sounds with new strings.

If you check my ebay feedback you'll see that I'm way overbought on guitars. I bought my first ebay guitar (and only my 2nd electric guitar ever) in early February this year. This one is my 21st ebay guitar (that I've purchased and gotten and kept -- there have been some wild rides in this spree!) and my 7th Electra. I'm not a collector nor am I rich. But these Matsumoku guitars are just too awesome to pass up for the $$. I also have 5 Vantages. Although I only recently went electric, I've been playing for 38+ years.

Now the way I got this very rare and beautiful guitar is also a bit of a story. I had been watching this guitar (Item # 7335753547) for about as long as it had been up on ebay -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 7335753547

More on it in a minute. But to continue, after I won that one (which I absolutely stole!), I was so high on the buy that I went back and searched all the available Electras again, and found the X420VS that had just come on a bit earlier that day. The moment I saw it, I knew I was going to grab it at the BIN, which I then did.

And the reason is related to the other guitar. That one just arrived today, in fact, and it's just what I thought it was. It's either a very early Burgundy Pro 2266, or a prototype of that (or maybe just a prototype of the set neck 335 copies that were to come). After getting it today and seeing it in person, my guess is that it's an early 2266. It's cherry red (doesn't look like it in the auction) and virtually the exact color match to the one Mike has on his Electra page. Mike has them in production as of 1976, but this guitar has the older style logo for sure. That, along with some of the other elements, suggest strongly to me that it is at least as old as 1975, and perhaps older.

It is in wonderful condition with virtually no dings, dents or scratches. Plays wonderfully and sounds just wonderful. Those tuners could be the old Gibson tuner they imitate (they're undoubtedly not, but they are a great imitation of the real thing).

Now, the reason this guitar affected my buy on the X420VS is that I thoroughly researched this Burgundy Pro to see if I could figure out what it was. There's no s/n or model on it and the seller says nothing about it. He doesn't even really have any description. I think he had no idea what he had. He has lousy pictures and didn't even include one of the back of the guitar (which is beautiful, btw). I emailed him very early on as to whether it was a bolt or set neck, and he never answered. His reserve was set below $124 and the guitar got very little action until the very end. I was prepared to pay over $400 for it if it was a Burgundy Pro or similar. I think the guy couldn't be bothered answering questions about the "cheapo" guitar he was selling. Other buyers either weren't hip or were put off.

But I was pretty sure it was set neck, and probably a Burgundy Pro. You can see in the auction photos that it has 22 frets. All of the bolts on Mike's site have 21 frets. Other things convinced me of what it was (and IS). So I done good (got lucky?).

In the course of my research on it, however, I very carefully looked at every 335 copy Mike has on his site. Including the X420VS, which struck me with it's beauty and is, of course, YOUR guitar!! So when I saw "mine" on ebay, I almost fainted. There was never a question about paying his BIN and grabbing it before somebody else did. And then I got very lucky with that history on it.

And the new Burgundy Pro also has a story. There was a receipt and other papers in the case compartment for the purchase of the guitar in 1981 from a music store as a new guitar. How often do you get that with your ebay guitar? I doubt they could have sold it as new unless it either was new, or was in "as new" condition. So it might have also been "NOS" because it's clearly not a 1981 vintage guitar. It doesn't look like it got much playing time thereafter, either.

So that's my story. Now I know that you nay-sayers might say I paid too much for these 2 guitars. So I invite you to tell me how much too much you think I paid? Keep in mind that both came with awesome hard cases and that "Winger" case has some mojo for sure. It's also an awesome case in excellent condition inside (and not bad at all on the outside for having been all over the world and back). The case for the other one is clearly vintage and a fairly high quality vintage case in very clean condition.

Now, I know that mine is essentially brand new and has no issues but for the 2 finish "bubbles," but how the heck did you get that beauty for that kind of $$?!?!?!

You are indeed one lucky son-of-a-gun.

I also invite readers to give me any history on Lucille. Are the Gibson Lucilles (and it's little brother) the only other "Lucille guitars" (no F-hole 335's), other than the Electras? I already know that Gibson didn't have them in production until 1982 (correct?) when B.B. signed a contract endorsing them, but were they ever made by anyone prior to that? I'm assuming that B.B. had his before that and that he had it made specially for him by Gibson. But I'm guessing here. I really haven't done that research yet.

If I'm right, then all "Lucilles" are relatively rare, with the Electras being more rare and the X420VS being the rarest of the rare. And a virtually new and virtually unplayed 1983 X420VS has gotta be the rarest of the rare for sure. The only thing rarer would have to be yours at that price you paid!

What can I say? Unlucky in love - lucky in guitars.

I gotta go play with my toys.

Whatever somebody might ddecide they're worth in 'book value', it will come nowhere close to the musical value of your instruments. And this will only get more so with time!

And I don't think you're overbought on guitars. I mean, you'e been playing for that many years- and many of those years you might not have afforded the guitars you wanted- now's your chance. Life is too short to worry about it- enjoy your babies!

X189player -

I like the way you think. While I understand when guys say they have too many, I really can't (yet) relate. I enjoy having a lot of different axes and while I recognize that most will not get the playing time they "deserve," what's the real harm? Am I to worry they might get mad at me?

Each one is different and has a different feel. After playing the new 2266 for awhile (that's what I'm calling it until I find out otherwise), I picked up what has been my regular player -- a Les Paul copy -- which then felt quite odd since it's a whole different thing.

That one was also very recently purchased on ebay and can still be seen -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

and also has a bit of a story. If you look at the pics, you'll note the one of the back of the headstock. There's the standard foil sticker with the s/n, but no model number or other designation. I've decided that it's probably a Super Rock 2245 and one must wonder why it's not designated. So perhaps this is also a one-off or proto. I welcome any input from anyone on it or the 2266. In any event, I can tell you that it is even more beautiful in person than in the pics. Although it's a bolt, this beauty has more sustain than any of my others!

Now, you tell me where you're going to find a beautiful guitar like that for a couple hundred bucks? The beauty and quality of these vintage Electras (and Vantages) just cannot be beat for the money they can currently be had for (sometimes).

Incidentally, there is now a Vantage 335 copy on ebay that's not a model shown on this site's Vantage page. It could be a virtual twin to my 2266 but for the fact that it's a Vantage and also not a trapeze tailpiece. Note the F-holes and how "fat" they are. My 2266 has those same "fat" F-holes, which are not bound (mine). Since these two guitars likely came out of the same Matusumku factory, it's probably not surprising that the bodies are so similar. This one has a truss rod cover designating it as a 635 V? (can't make out whatever follows the "V"), which I've never heard of before. I note that these "fat" F-holes seem to be usual on the Vantage 335 copies, while most Electras I've seen have more delicate F-holes.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-ES-335-copy- ... dZViewItem

If I could afford to, I'd be buying up a lot more of these Electra and Vantgage guitars. Then I could just simply call myself a "collector" and be done with the matter.

One last comment I forgot to make to Kyle in my original post above. I didn't miss the irony of his post having been made on July 5th and discussing the rarity of the X420VS and how he'd not seen another for the past 2 years, and then up popped "mine" not two week later. I erroneously said it came up the same day I grabbed it (19th), but it actually came up on the 18th (or so it says). Ain't it always the way? As soon as you say something, that kind of thing happens. He'd been watching for another one for 2 years, then as soon as he posts about not seeing another, up one pops.

I'm just glad that I saw the darn thing when I did.

By the way, guys, did you all note that the black one with the funky pickguard is back on? At a significantly reduced price too. Looks like a beautiful item but I think maybe still a tad too high. But that's a matter of personal preference. My comment about how much did I overpay was somewhat provocative. Because I can't see anyone arguing about paying $430 for it (and the case and the shipping!), which would be $100 less than I paid. And if we are going to argue over $100, then I think we can all see how arbitrary this all is.

Bottom line is that you have it in the proper perspective. If you want one of these beautiful guitars, and are willing to spend "a little more" (whatever that means) to get it when it comes available, how can anyone argue with that? There's no guarantee that you will EVER see another, and even if you do, it'll probably be awhile before you do. Go find a little side job to make a few extra bucks to pay the difference and forget about it.

For my part, I'll certainly keep my eyes open for a deal like Kyle got, but I won't hold my breath waiting. That kind of thing very rarely comes along and he was indeed very lucky to be in the right place at the right time (and smart enough to take advantage of it).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

TMax, I really don't think any of your guitars are going to be mad at you. True, a well crafted instrument deserves to be played, but, if one has the resources available, it's neither illegal nor immoral to acquire what one desires (through acceptable methods of course).

Any more I'm one of those silly people that is thinning the herd because many just aren't played near that often, some not at all. I meet too many hardworking talented players hacking away on Korean and Chinese made mediocrity and broken down leftovers from the 1980s American Dream Machine (you know, the guitars purists used to shove in my face calling mine a riceburner, and Jap "somethingortheother").

At one time I had over 40 guitars strategically placed so that the number never really appeared that large. Who knows how many during my lifetime, easily in the hundreds and then some. Now I am down to under 20, and still thinning. I'm trading two hollows for a PE-450 with neck problems. One of the two hollows is going to an aspiring 15-year-old guitarist and pianist currently studying classical and I am told she is qutie talented. Who knows, maybe she will be the next "Randy" or "Stevie". I am absolutely thrilled.

I cannot deny it was a grand adventure, but the time has come to marry those that are special and break up with those that never really turned out to be sweethearts. It's time to pass along that heritage to the next adventurer or future shooting star. After all, it was never the guitars themselves, it was the magic that happened when I picked them up. Having a well crafted instrument simply helped.

The three hollows I still have all cost in the $430-$450 range, including the JazzStrad. In my opinion a reasonable price for a well constructed set-neck 335 clone. By the same token, I don't think I would go a whole lot higher. I guess my wallet, if seen, would pretty much reveal my social and economic status these days.

That Vantage is a later model Korean which is why it's not covered here.

Of the Electras I have had or seen, about half that had the silver sticker had since lost the model designation. Those that were not gone were written in what appeared to be Sharpie or something like it. Sharpie will dissolve in rubbing alcohol or ammonia base cleaners such as Windex. I don't think any of these Electras were prototypes of any sort. Considering they did have the sticker and serial number, I suspect they were production.

Hey Guys -

I'm back with further proof that I have no self-control - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 7349222009

I'm not just showin' off here (tho' I am pleased as punch to have won it), but also do have a question.

In that vein, I will say that (once again?) I might have paid a tad too much. I figure something like $70-$100 too much. That's based on the $530 that I paid for the X420VS (I'm including shipping in these totals), since I paid just about $100 more for this one than that one. Then again, I think that guy underpriced that one, which is why I almost broke my leg jumping on his BIN price as soon as I saw it.

And I paid $524 total for my just-about-mint Vulcan X950, so I'm taking that into consideration as well.

BTW, I've been playing the X420VS a LOT lately (didn't play it much after I got it but now have been playing it for a week or so full time) and this thing is awesome. According to her history, she's completely original, which means she's got the original pups. I will say that if you ever come across one of these, you will not be sorry if you can get it. She truly does play like butter and has an unbelieveable tone. She's heavy for sure, and a bit bigger than your usual 335 (not by much, but won't fit in a standard 335 case). The neck is bigger and wider as well -- in fact the thing just feels bigger all over. But it is sweet sweet sweet, and I am SO happy I got lucky and got it.

Anyway, as to this Jazz Strad -- and how much I overpaid -- there was another one that sold not 2 weeks ago, and went for the same money. http://cgi.ebay.com/1977-ELECTRA-ES-335 ... 7347520573 . I didn't bid on that one and it was because it didn't look "clean" enough to warrant that price (for me). It's really hard to say, especially since I don't have mine in hand yet, but mine looks cleaner than that one. It looks brand new to me and if you guys see something otherwise (other than the two neck finish chips), please don't tell me and ruin my day. To be honest, I'm not so sure the other one isn't a bit prettier, but there's not much to choose between them either way on that. They both have awesome flame and are in VERY nice condition. Don't forget that these guitars are 28 years old now !

And as far as my self control goes, I DID say awhile ago (to somebody) that I thought I was about done buying guitars for awhile (now I have a tube amp Jones to deal with), but I might just be a sucker for a Jazz Strad.

So there ya go.

So now to my question. Note the serial numbers on these guitars. Mine is K776277 and the other is A776161. This form of serial number is new to me as far as Electras go. I'm probably just being stupid, but I haven't seen it mentioned. To me, this looks like an Ibanez serial number, which would make both guitars '77 vintage, with mine made in November and the other in January. At least, that's what I'm recalling from memory without checking it out again. I do know that Ibanez also used a letter to designate the factory from whence the guitar came, but I think that's not the pattern involved here (?). It depends on the time period we're talking about, if I remember correctly.

Does anybody have any information on this? I'd appreciate it. Is there any chance that Ibanez made these guitars? They are very much like the Ibanez models, which go for even more money. I can't imagine that's the case, but ....

I'll also check it out in myself when I get some time, unless you guys put me hip first.

Also, note that that black X420 that was listed at an outrageous price initially (the one with the funky flame pickguard), and which was the subject of another thread, came back a few times since then and (I believe) finally sold this last time around (if it's not still active), with either no reserve or an appropriate reserve. If the black ones are a nice as the VS model, it's a beautiful guitar for sure.

Take care, guys. Rock on !

I'm not sure who made the JazzStrad. Tom Presley seemed to recall Terada. Ibanez to date has not made a single guitar. FujiGen Gakki, Chusin (sp?) Gakki, Kasuga, and later on Hoshino Gakki Ten are some of the manufacturers of the Ibanez label. Along those lines Tom also indicated that certain Electra models were subcontracted to different manufacturers.

IIRC both Hoshino and Samick used letters to indicate country of origin (the BBEG mentions the schemes), but this is likely on later models where you have Korean, Chinese, Indonesian, and Phillipine guitars thrown into the mix. The serial on mine begins with K77 and is the stoptail version.

I paid $425 for mine with a Gibson hardshell. I will be sending mine along to a new home here shortly. I think the only two with gaudy flame that will be staying are the Pro Endorser and Westone Prestige 250 for the way they play and easily ignore all the pretty make-up. At least when I wake up in the morning they both still look the same.

I don't think you paid too much. Let's face it. These guitars are becoming collector's items, and in that world only those with the money can effectively participate. If all interested in that JazzStrad had a grand they were willing to toss at it, would it have ended at $610?

The JazzStrad was easily one of my favorites until the VSH-455 and TA-70 took it's place. Two hollows is enough for me. One stock tone and versatility, the other hotter.

Thanks for all the good info. And the bad info -- the VSH-455 was one I was hot for before I got hot for the Jazz Strad. And I could have had a VERY nice example of one of those not all that long ago for $200 less than what I paid for this (and it also had the original hard case).

I think I said already that I also have 5 Vantages, including a beautiful solid body Entertainer (VE 550) from a very nice fellow we all know from this site. I think he still regrets letting it go.

I had a feeling the VSH was a very high quality item, but I'm yet to play one. Maybe I'll get the chance to add one to the collection, tho' I don't know where the $$'s coming from.

I now will have 4 quality ES 335 copies -- the 3 Electras (including that cherry red "one off" maybe-Burgundy Pro that I've talked about before), and a super super 1968 Ovation Thunderhead that I absolutely stole for $410 (with the original hard case) while other ebayers slept. I think there was just the opening bid guy and me on that one. That's one that a lot of guys might not know -- unless you watched Glenn Campbell's show back in the day. Like all Ovation electrics (?), it's a bolt. But it is a wonderful vintage guitar that plays just great and sounds just great. And (again -- I am so darn lucky sometimes), mine is mint. Here's another guy's that I found so that you can see what I'm talking about (my ebay link expired some time ago) - http://jeromegalopin.free.fr/Electric%2 ... 01968.html

So there's a wonderful mint high-quality guitar that's pushing 40 years old, and I ended up with it for that kind of money. How lucky am I?

Of course, I don't get much sleep anymore.

Bad info? Did I goof?

NO! You did not goof.

"Bad info" in that I got the Jazz Strad over the VSH-455.

Bad for me (good for you).

You do prefer the Vantage, I take it? I have no frame of reference at all because I'm yet to play either. I'll get my Jazz Strad experience soon, and be able to compare that to the X420 and the "Burgundy Pro," but I have no access to the Vantage. Tell me more about it. Why do you prefer it over the Strad? Do you find them comparable in quality or one better than the other?

By the way, I think I've previously linked the "Burgundy Pro" that I've talked about. It should still work. Not being a Gibson guy, I didn't realize what a Gibson ES-335 rip-off that is until I took some books out of my library and saw some of the Gibsons in there. My Electra has the open book headstock, the freaking headstock crown inlay, the perloid tuning buttons (of course) and a trapeze identical to the "real thing." I'm convinced that this guitar is a 1975 guitar or older (it has the old logo), and it would certainly seem to predate "the lawsuit" because this thing isn't something they would have put out after the suit was filed. Maybe it was made before that and somehow later found its way into the market, but they certainly wouldn't have put it out after the suit was settled. When was that?

I wasn't hip to the Gibson crown inlay until I took the books out, so it didn't hit me when I was researching the guitar before I bid and won. According to Gruhn's book, the crown inlay first appeared on Gibson's 1940 ES-300 and still continues on the higher end guitars.

You seem to know Tom (?). Can you maybe check with him on this and see what maybe he thinks? Or put me in touch? I'm thinking it's after his arrival and perhaps a proto for the set neck 335's. But I'm pretty much ignorant of the facts.

I realize that this topic is long past, but it just so happens I have a soft spot in my heart for one particular 420 VS (I'll post pics later ). For starters, know that I am neither a physics professor nor a paid musical engineer. That being said, I'll start with the obvious. Wood responds to particular frequencies by vibrating and producing sounds waves, or by 'resonating'. Wood is naturally resonant at certain frequencies, but NOT at others. The exact response differs from wood to wood and even tree to tree. Instruments are built ovular, circular, or cylindrical because smooth edges allow a sound wave to reverberate, while jagged edges and non-smooth surfaces cause waves to deteriorate. Because waves harmonically reinforce each other, the more frequencies responded to and resonated, the more sound "rings out" at a more perfect pitch. In this fashion, volume of an instrument (and its tone) is not dictated by size nearly so much as by choice of wood and how it interacts with its corresponding acoustic resonating space. An f-hole is removed from the acoustic resonating space for two reasons; so that acoustic resonation is audible outside of the space itself, and because they're so gall darn pretty Now to the meat of the cow - Instruments were first built without f-holes (actually, sound holes in general) at the advent of implementation of electrical amplification of sound. Why? Simple. Because when an instrument's acoustic resonation (or in the case of a band, multiple instruments) are picked up by a microphone, reproduced out of an amplifier or PA system, and picked up again by that same microphone, your end result is an infinitely looping signal that deteriorates in sound quality and gets progressively louder with each pass - A.K.A. 'Feedback' So, not adding f-holes to an instrument was a logical solution to a widespread problem. But the kicker was a side-effect long forgotten by those designing musical instruments. Acoustic resonance. Our favorite guitar designs (anywhere from 335 to dreadnought) were built allowing acoustic resonance, but not necessarily perfecting it. This is where Stradivarius becomes the antagonist of mass production. While acoustic resonance is the basic premise of music as we know it, it had become more of a list of requirements. An instrument without sound holes invariably resonates better, due once again to harmonic reinforcement, (thus improving volume and tone) than an instrument with. The reason is similar to why that unplanned hole in your sub-woofer box sounds like junk (okay, so that was a far-stretched comparison , work with me). Such guitars sound better because they are better, acoustically speaking anywho. Stradivarius knew this, but he also knew that no matter how round the concert hall, the audience would never hear the resonations. So, using modern technology, how could one create a near perfect acoustic resonation while still allowing the sound to be audible? The answer had already been invented - a pickup. You could say that "Lucille" was discovered quite by accident. I know that my stream of consciousness is cracked out through that rambling post, but its 11:30 and I'm still at work I hope I helped anyone still pondering that question. P.S. You'll have to forgive any errors and misspellings because I am NOT spellchecking that.