The Electra Forums

Hmmm, An oddball Electra Jazzbox on fleabay http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-ELECTRA-ACOUSTIC-ELECTRIC-GUITAR_W0QQitemZ7424250655QQihZ016QQcategoryZ119094QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It's got the early pre-75 logo on it and a Gibson headstock...but the set neck may preclude it from being a Pacific Coast Music Electra. any thoughts?

I think this points more clearly to the fact that there are a generation of Electras older than the 72 catalog. I am frankly skeptical of the claim that the Lucite was the first 'Electra guitar'.

It's also very possible that early on both PCM and SLM were ordering and selling the same models. I would love to get a close look at this one... it could be an early version of the Howard Roberts hollowbody, too.

Hard to say, the Gibson Howard Roberts' models of the 70's all have soundholes and one pickup. That sucker looks like an exact copy of a Gibson ES-175, gauranteeing that it's pre-1975 (for threat of lawsuit reasons).

Because of the set neck and what looks like good build quality, combine that with the humbuckers and my feeling is that puts you in to the early - mid 70's at the earliest. Combine it with that logo and I'd say 1972-74. To pre-date the Lucite Electra would pretty much make it late 60's. I can't remember any set necks with humbuckers coming out of Japan this early. This and the fact that the Electra powerline catalog basically introduces the Electra line alongside Apollo if I remember correctly.

Don't ya just love a good mystery X

Hi Guys -

I'm the winning bidder on that one. Yea!!

I haven't checked in to the forum in a few months, and never since it moved here (didn't know that it had). I only checked in now to put up a post about the guitar because I'm very curious about whether anyone here has ever seen one like it before. Thus I wasn't aware that you guys knew about the guitar already.

I paid quite a bit more than I would have liked to but I really wanted this one. Do a search for my name in the archives (perhaps only at the old forum?) and you will find my prior posts on one of my other Electras, which appears (at least to me) to be an oddball Burgundy Pro. This ES-175 copy here is the only other Electra I've ever seen that has the same open book headstock, old style logo and crown inlay as my Burgundy Pro has. In fact, this headstock appears to be virtually identical to my BP headstock. When I saw that close-up shot of the headstock that the seller had included in the auction, I nearly fell over. Of course, I don't yet have the new one in hand, so I can't compare them side-by-side, but I'm pretty sure they are identical.

I can tell you that my BP is a very fine and well-made guitar. Which is another reason that I was interested in this one. If it's as well made as my BP, I done good.

The only other ES-175 copy I know of is by Ibanez. Those were offered by Ibanez in their '71-'75 catalogs and in 2 finishes. There was a natural, Model 2355M, and the sunburst, Model 2355. I've seen the catalog pics and the 2355 appears to be a twin to this Electra in every apparent respect, including the crown inlay.

BTW, Ibanez also offered a 2454 model in it's '75 catalog (and prior), and that guitar is a virtual twin to my so-called Burgundy Pro (which is what I call it, but I think it is not part of the official Burgundy Pro line).

So I'm wondering whether the same factory cranked out both the Ibanez and Electra models; that is, the two guitars that I have.

I'd have to double-check, but I think Ibanez continued to offer the two 2355's after '75. I know they continued to carry the 2454. But by then they had changed the headstock shape, so the '76 and later models no longer had the forbidden open book headstock shape.

We know that although some few post-'75 Electra guitars did have the open book headstock shape (probably earlier left-over guitars), this older style logo supposedly wasn't used after '75. Thus I think my "Burgundy Pro" is at least that old. Which means it can't be a real Burgundy Pro because that line didn't start until '76. Also, it has no serial number at all; and to my knowledge, all Burgundy Pros (and other 335 copies from '76 on) had headstock serial numbers, either stamped or sticker.

So my theory about this ES-175 guitar and my so-called Burgundy Pro is that they were limited offerings by Electra during some sort of a transitional phase around 1975 when the company was moving away from lesser-quality copy guitars to the higher-quality copy guitars they began to offer in 1976 with the Burgundy Pro and Elvin Bishop models. I suspect that they got these guitars from the same supplier that Ibanez was using, and thus they are just Ibanez guitars which have been badged as Electras.

But that's just my theory.

When I get my hands on this ES-175, I'll let you know how it matches up quality-wise.

If anyone has any knowledge of any other ES-175 copy guitars, I'd love to hear about them.

But by then they had changed the headstock shape, so the '76 and later models no longer had the forbidden open book headstock shape.


Hey, ya know what? Now that I hear myself say that, it occurs to me that maybe THAT'S why Electra put these two guitars out. I'm thinking that these were made for Ibanez in '75, but when Ibanez decided to discontinue the open book headstock shape starting in '76 because of the lawsuit, the factory had these left-over -- and what to do with 'em?

Why not sell 'em to Electra (or whoever) and put that name on them?

Ya know, maybe that's the answer here.

Which would indeed make these somewhat limited-edition oddball guitars, at least as far as Electra guitars go. They wouldn't be oddball or limited-edition as far as Ibanez guitars go, but they had the forbidden headstock shape and so Ibanez no longer wanted anything to do with them.

So in jump the SLM boys and say "We'll take 'em -- at a nice price."

Makes sense to me.

By George, I may just have got it!

By the way, my "Burgundy Pro" came with the original case; and in the case was the sales receipt for when the guitar was purchased in June 1981. The receipt states that the guitar was new and the price was $413.00. So it looks like this guitar languished on the shelf for quite some time.

Seems odd because it's such a beautiful guitar. But perhaps the old style logo just didn't sit very well with the buyers of the day(?). Folks interested in Electras back in the mid-to-late 70's probably wanted the ones that looked like those played by Frampton or Elvin Bishop or Leslie West or The Outlaws, and this didn't look like any of those, especially with that old logo.

T-Max, I'd like to know more about your burgundy pro. Check the webpage BP under model 2266. That's my old late 1976 Burgundy Pro, by all accounts the first year of production. The guitar you bought bears no resemblance at all to my BP or any I've seen. The BP is based on an ES-335, the guitar you just bought is based on the ES-175, a single cut and much wider body than the 335, different bridge/tailpeice all tells me this guitar has nothing to do with the BP model as I know it. Also I can't recall seeing those fret markers on any Electra.

I've got catalogs from 1972, 74 & 76 and there's nothing like this in any of them. In '72, everything was bolt on neck and much cruder. In '74 looks like mostly if not all bolt on necks. '76 has set necks but the transition to the peace symbol logo is beginning. To me, this means that *IF* this guitar is a Saint Louis Music Electra, it has to be late '74 or 1975. Anyone have catalogs to back this up?

Now I say *IF*, because I have suspicions that this is not an SLM Electra or possibly it is SLM but dare I say a one off or limited production run.

It's a mystery for sure, a 1973 or 1975 catalog would help solve it...anyone got one? Oh well, here's to hoping there's some telling markings on the guitar when you get it!

Hi Stratty.

I hope I didn't confuse you -- my "Burgundy Pro" and this new one are two separate guitars, with the BP being an ES-335 copy and this one being an ES-175 copy, as you noted for both.

What I believe to be the unique similarity between them -- and I believe it even more strongly now -- is that it looks very possible to me that they are both "one offs."

I previously felt that perhaps my BP was a prototype, but that's almost certainly not the case. I now think that I'm on to something with the notion that these are simply Ibanez guitars that were "abandoned" by Ibanez because of the decision to change the headstock shape for '76, and then picked up by SLM and sold by it under the Electra name.

My BP looks essentially like the one shown on the Electra page (are you saying that's actually YOUR guitar?). But mine is different. It has no serial number on the back of the headstock or anywhere else. I believe all of the BP's that were sold as BP's had serial numbers stamped on the back of the headstock or, possibly, later by sticker. The F-holes are unbound. It has pearloid-buttoned tuners. The position markers are rectangular but not scalloped. And, of course, the headstock is virtually identical to the one on this ES-175 copy (old logo, crown inlay, Gibson open-book shape).

It looks very much like the 2454 shown here in the '75 Ibanez catalog -

http://www.break-even.org/ibzscans/1975FB/75-4.jpg

In fact, it's probably identical to that guitar except for the name on the headstock and the plainer trapeze which the 2395 next to it has. Of course, the Ibanez 2454 is VERY much like the Electra Burgundy Pro anyway.

See also the 2355 on that page, which looks identical to my new Electra ES-175 copy -- the guitar that started this thread.

The fact that you have those catalogs and there's no such ES-175 copy in them tells me that it wasn't a guitar offered in the catalog. So it's a kind of a "one off" thing. I assume we've seen the '75 catalog (?) and there's nothing in there either?

I believe the same is true of my Burgundy Pro. It's entirely possible that it was simply an early '76 BP, but I don't think so. I don't know why it wouldn't have a serial number, why the markers wouldn't be scalloped and why the F-holes would be unbound if it were indeed just a BP. And has anyone else ever seen a BP with pearloid tuners? These are pretty clearly original. The 2454 appears to have 'em. It also has rectangular markers and it appears to have unbound F-holes.

By the way, was (or is) the serial number on your BP in the same format as the Ibanez s/n's (letter preceding the numbers), as is the case with the Jazz Strads and (I believe) the Elvin Bishops?

Thanks for your interest. At the moment, my last guess about all this is my best guess so far.

Couple more things -

First of all, I almost didn't make a play for this guitar after it had gotten so high this morning. I was hoping to pick up a bargain here and when the bidding got up there this morning, I almost passed.

But now everytime I look at it on the auction page, I'm salivating and sooo glad I went for it. I think I'm really going to like this guitar. Now I'm just worried (as always) about the shipping aspect.

Now, you said: Oh well, here's to hoping there's some telling markings on the guitar when you get it!

Do you have anything in mind in particular that I should look for? I will say that I have not even pulled the pups on my BP to see what they might say on them. Anybody know what they should say? Especially if it's a "real" BP?

I wouldn't expect them to be anything other than Electra pups. I'm not thinking that it would have Ibanez pups in it or anything like that. When I say it might have been an Ibanez guitar, I mean that it was made pretty much to completion but for the addition of the logo and final finish, but obviously not yet with the pups and other electrics in it. If the factory changed it from an Ibanez to an Electra, I'm sure they put in whatever electrics Electra usually got.

The suggested Ibanez connection is bound to make at least one lurker here angry There's more fact to prove Electra had nothing to do with Ibanez than there is proof to say they did. Somebody pipe in here on the Ibanez connection, I'm a little fuzzy on it. The old memory banks seem to remember they briefly shared a maker...was it Matsumoku or another maker?

There most definately are at least 2 makers of Electra guitars from this period. Saint Louis Music, these are the guitars this page is currently dedicated to. And Pacific Coast Music, I beleive the direction by the guys running the page may be to include the PCM's at some point, but...while we've managed to figure out about 75% of the facts on the SLM Electras, I'd guess less than 10% is known about the PCM Electras. Check out the history page on this site for more on PCM.

I'm leaning towards your new guitar being a PCM Electra, but I'm not 100% on this...just a gut feeling based on research from ancient times floating around in my noggin.

The real truth is that you may never figure out the story...if it's a good guitar, I say play it brother

That WAS my BP. I sold it to a lucky guy in British Columbia 2 years ago. It was mint, but the neck up by the nut was just too narrow for my Les Paulish hands Unfortunately I can't seem to find a record of the serial number, one may turn up one one of my 70 or so backup CD's...but I ain't looking tonight

Most of the Electras I've seen post 1975 had all the info on a foil sticker on the back of the headstock...and often it's long gone. Serial numbers or info on the pickups might help, any kind of info, even as a long shot a sticker inside an F hole, who knows.

Here's the back of 3 Electra MPC Super Magnaflux humbuckers from the late 70's to give you something to look for

Stratty -

The reason I asked about your BP serial number was that many post-'76 Elvin Bishop and Jazz Strad models I've seen here and there, mostly on ebay, have that "Ibanez style" serial number (numbers preceded by a letter) stamped on the rear of the headstock, just as is done on Ibanez guitars (horizontally at the top). See the lower EB example on the Models Page (model 2281). On the other hand, the upper example apparently doesn't follow that pattern since the serial number as stated doesn't have a letter preceding the numbers. That guitar is pretty reliably a 1976 model since it was supposedly "bought new in November that year by Steve Kirk."

Then if you look at the two Jazz Strad (X410) examples, you see that the upper one (Dan Taylor's guitar) appears to have the very-familiar foil sticker on it -- and it's stated as "likely a '76." But all of the fan-shaped headstock Strads I've seen (including my own), as well as the fan-shaped EBs, have the stamped "Ibanez-style" serial number.

So this stamped "Ibanez-style" serial number that I'm referring to is seen almost exclusively (in my experience) on EBs and Jazz Strads post-'76. I'm not sure what the '76 serial numbers look like, other than Dan Taylor's example.

This is somewhat suggestive of an Ibanez connection of some sort. But obviously there's no certainty about that. What IS pretty clear is that there was a lot of variation in these guitars as far as the serial numbers go, which suggests to me that SLM didn't much care about all that stuff. In fact, it doesn't seem SLM cared much about anything in particular -- other than getting fairly decent guitars that would sell over here -- until Tom Pressely came aboard (or shortly prior thereto) and the company seemed to change direction toward becoming a "real guitar" company. By that I mean a company that was producing "its own guitars" with its own names and models, like the Elvin Bishop, Jazz Strad, Burgundy Pro, and all the MPC guitars, which might one day become known in their own right like the Gibson and Fender models had done before them.

Now, as far as your gut instinct about my BP goes, when I first read that I thought "Where's he getting THIS from?!?!?!"

But, as per usual, I was completely missing something important here. As I said already, I have the original paperwork on the sale of my BP to the original purchaser of it as a new guitar back in 1981. I thought I didn't actually have a music store receipt with the name and address of the store on it. What I knew I did have was the "Security Agreement" with the details of the guitar ("New") and the buyer's name and address. He bought the guitar on the installment plan, and thus the Security Agreement. And I knew that I also had his form receipt for his down payment (stapled to the SA) which also has his name and address.

And low and behold, wanna take a wild freaking guess where he lived?

Ya -- Califreakingfornia.

And the SA agreement is a California standard printed legal form by "Law Printing Co. of Calif., Inc." The seller's name (or other info) does not appear anywhere on it.

The receipt bearing his name and address again is another standard printed form (Receipt) with no real identifying information on it as to the seller.

BUT, looking at the paperwork again, I NOW see (hello!) that there's a third (small) piece of paper stapled to the SA, which is the register receipt for his down payment and which has the music store's name, address and phone number.

So this guitar was sold as a brand new guitar by a California music store to a local boy. It would appear that the guitar was sold a few years after it was manufactured -- though we don't know for sure when it was manufactured -- but it's not unusual for a guitar to languish in the store for a few years before being sold.

But what this all means to me is that the California angle, and the fact that it was supposedly a new guitar, would seem to pretty strongly imply that it most likely was a PCM guitar.

No?

Wasn't PCM the "exclusive" supplier for "Electra" guitars west of St. Louis? Wasn't that supposedly the arrangement these brothers had?

My understanding about PCM guitars is that they were generally lesser quality guitars (to SLM guitars). But do we know that to be true? What DO we know about PCM guitars?

How do you know one when you see one?

As to vintage of my BP (and this ES-175 when I get it), I can always pull a pot and see what the date code says -- if it has a date code on it. Which it might not.

Other than that, and anything on the pups, I don't know how we would move things along further. BUT, if you are correct and these guitars are indeed PCM guitars, then certainly that would explain why they aren't shown in your SLM catalogs of the era.

Note also that the seller of my ES-175 is located in AZ. The guitar might likely be an Estate sale deal, meaning it could also have been a west coast guitar. I'll see what, if anything, I can find out from the seller about it.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Looks like you might have made a pretty good call there, Stratty.

AND .....

The music store is still there !!

I just emailed 'em. Stay tuned.

What I need is a chatty old-timer who's just dying to spin some yarns about the old days and the golden era of Japanese guitars.

Yea, like that's gonna happen.

Ya I think my BP was a letter first in the serial number, and I've definitley seen this before on Electras.

I did a lot of research on these guitars in the last 8 years, I ran the Electra page for 5 years So while my memory is fuzzy after about a one year self imposed exile from Electraland...the gut is usually somewhat accurate

There was some PCM info on the history page but it looks like it's gone now. I just checked an archived Electra page c2004 and found the following paragraph;

Saint Louis Music (SLM) was owned by Bernard Kornblum and SLM marketed the Electra line of guitars mainly east of the Rockies between 1971-1984. David Kornblum (Bernard's brother) owned a company based in California called Pacific Music. Pacific music distributed a separate line of guitars West of the Rockies. This line was also named Electra, but the two companies were not connected. This gets even more confusing considering that Pacific Music's Electra logo was nearly identical to the early (1972- c1975) SLM Electra logo (see above)! To further complicate the issue, both companies often imported from the same Japanese source, so the guitars were very similar. What I have noticed about the Pacific Coast Electra's, is that most (if not all) have an X on the headstock as seen above, and I've also seen the same X on the pickguard. I've also noticed that Pacific Coast Electra's look to be cruder, lower quality imports than the SLM Electra's.

This info is based on Michael Wright's findings as well as my own deductions. It's not all fact, in fact some of the PCM's I've seen floating around actually seem to be of comprable quality to the c1975 SLM's.

I'd have to agree that SLM made a move around 1975 to make Electras more legitimate guitars. I seriously doubt they'll ever enjoy anywhere near the same popularity that older American brands like Gibson, Fender, and even Gretsch & Rickenbacker are enjoying. There's too big a stigma on Japanese guitars by the movers and shakers of the vintage arena. Combine that with a lot of laminate tops and the fact that many were built for beginers to intermediates and Elecra will continue to be a cult guitar (a growing cult mind you).

I can definitely see the day when the finest Electras garner $1500-$2000 mind you...of course 1959 Les Paul's will likey be closing in on a million bucks with 50's Strats at 500 grand...and I think we can all see that coming as the Paul's are creeping up to 300 grand with some strats breaking 50 grand!

It's all about supply and demand, as the guitars get detroyed and modified beyond recognition, as long as there's more people that want Electras than there are Electras available...the price will go up.

I'm interested to see if the music store sheds any light on this. There are a bunch of SLM people from the 70's available for comment if you can find them (some used to frequent the page), but all but a few have forgotten pretty much everything it would seem . There was very little rhyme or reason to production to these guitars. They made more of what sold and quickly changed what didn't sell. I really doubt any of the SLM people in the day ever imagined anyone would give a darn about their guitars 25-30 years down the road let alone that they'd develop a fiercly loyal cult following that's still growing.

Hey Stratty -

I've been working on the following for awhile and finally have it to where I am satisfied with it. Actually, it's more like I'm just totally done with it. But I checked in before posting it and saw your reply. Just to let you know that I'm not revamping what I already wrote (because I'm DONE with it!), so here it is (without taking your reply into consideration) :

And since it's a rainy day here, I found something further of possible interest to the guitar that began this thread -

Eugene Kornblum, son of Bernard Kornblum (founder of SLM), was interviewed on 03/29/03 in Scottsdale, AZ. He apparently is still living and is still the President of SLM, which is still in business, BTW. He'd be almost 71 today.

Since the subject guitar is being sold by an AZ seller, it makes you think, huh?

Bernard died in 2000 at the age of 99.

To further confuse things as to whether my guitars might be PCM guitars, I note this page -

http://www.hagstrom.org.uk/copies_copies.htm

which has some of the historical information that used to be posted on the old "Mike's Electra Page" -

Pacific Music's Electra logo was nearly identical to the SLM Electra logo from 1972 to 1975 except instead of the SLM gold text, a black text on a white background.

Indeed both companies often imported from the same source! Pacific Coast often have an X on the headstock or the pickguard.

(and see the picture of the PCM headstock there, which I believe used to be available for viewing on the old site)

That headstock is obviously very different than the ones on my two guitars here, so unless PCM used to make their logo and headstocks pretty much identical to SLM's, which I don't think was ever the case, then my guitars can't be PCM guitars. For one thing, I don't think PCM ever used the open book headstock shape that SLM clearly did and which these guitars have.

So I guess I'm now back to thinking these guitars are not PCM guitars.

BTW, I remember that Olivia's Vintage guitar shown there and which was sold on ebay in April 2005. I think I might have bid on it.

That article also enlightened me about the fact that "Saint Louis Music used the Electra brand from 1971-1984." Assuming that's true, I wasn't aware that "Electra" didn't exist until 1971. I was thinking that there were older Electras (from the sixties, man).

I'm pretty confident that both my guitars we've discussed here are 1975 vintage or older (possibly '76 but I think not). Which means they can only be circa 1971-1975, which is a pretty narrow range. And I tend to think they wouldn't likely be pre-'73 or '74.

Consider the fact that these companies were originally interested only in making copies of the famous American guitar models. That was certainly true up to the early '70's, at the latest. SLM was already offering 335 copies but they weren't true 335 copies like my BP and their "official" BP's and other post-'75 copies are. And certainly there's no evidence that SLM ever offered anything like an exact ES-175 copy.

So as of '74-'75, it looks to me like no Japanese maker was making true ES-335 or ES-175 copies of relatively high quality.

Except for Ibanez, that is. As their early '70's catalogs prove, they WERE making quality copies of these models back in '71 and maybe even prior thereto.

Think about it. I'd bet that back then there just weren't a lot of factories set up to make quality 335 and 175 copies. Especially such true and accurate copies, as these two guitars obviously are. It looks to me like the only such factories making such guitars were the ones supplying Ibanez with those models. That's why it seems logical to me that these guitars were Ibanez guitars that ended up badged as Electra. My BP just doesn't fit with the production Burgundy Pro line which began in '76, and there's no evidence that Electra ever offered an ES-175 copy in any of its catalogs.

So I'm thinking that I ended up with two oddball "one off" guitars which Electra offered sometime around 1975. How weird is that?

As to who made them, I'm still thinking Ibanez because I don't know what other Japanese maker was making an ES-175 copy (particularly a quality copy). And if the BP is indeed pre-'76, which I think it is, then Electra wasn't yet quite up to speed for putting out Burgundy Pro guitars.

My BP could indeed be just an early production BP. But if that's the case, why all the anamolies with it? Why the old logo and why that crown inlay? That's not something that Electra ever offered in any of its catalogs, is it?

So I think I'm back to my original thought. These guitars are cast-off Ibanez guitars that got badged Electra. They could have been imported and sold by PCM but I think SLM is the more likely candidate. Either way, it really doesn't matter much because they are essentially Ibanez guitars that just got the Electra logo put on them.

I certainly don't think these are the only two such guitars. If I'm right, then there undoubtedly were a number of such guitars already essentially finished which Ibanez would have declined. But you'd have to think there weren't all that many of them.

This notion shouldn't offend anyone who doesn't like the idea of an Ibanez / Electra connection because these guitars don't establish any such connection. They are just oddball guitars that SLM probably picked up at a nice price because of the one-time opportunity to do which presented itself as a result of Ibanez's decision to change its headstock shape for the '76 model year.