The Electra Forums

Well boys I finally ended up doing something today I had always held out hope against ever having to do. I escalated the case I opened with Ebay's Resolution Center to them for a ruling.

In the end the best the seller would do is consider (his words) a refund of $50 and said he was sorry I was disappointed with the condition of the guitar. His replys to my messages to him trying to work out things had slowed and many of his answers to my questions were evasive (IMO) or he ignored some completely.

With not much left to gain by dealing soley with him I opened an Item not as Described case and then only 2 final responses came back. In his first he inaccurately (AGAIN) described what he would consider as a refund to me and then made a final offer of $75 refunded but attached the condition that if I accept it we both would keep our feedback. His second response after I rejected the first one was shorter and only offered a full refund after I pay shipping, insurance and signature verification (required if over $250) to return it ....

"EITHER SEND IT BACK OR KEEP IT, THERE WILL BE NO PARTIAL REFUND."

So before escalating the case I called ebay and spoke at length to an agent there, who while being very helpful and understanding, left me feeling I was pretty much SOL as far as my chances of getting a satisfactory result from this whole episode.

The seller has also apparently been keeping tabs on this thread judging by what he shared in one of his last responses to me. He had claimed what I was telling him in ebay messages and what I was posting here were making him believe that I was being dishonest with him. That made me actally smile... I had been assuming all along that he was out there lurking and watching as he had been getting very good advice from Dave (thanks again, man) but apparently ignoring most of it.

So anyway, 72 hours according to ebay and a final decision will be made. Judging by my past experiences on that auction site I had developed this idea that I was going to remain immune to a bad result there.

Oh well...

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...throw me a frickin' bone here, people...

Ebay will almost always side with a buyer - small consolation I guess. Good Luck! Can there be a satisfactory outcome?

I have gone from "hoping so" to now thinking "probably not". In the second to last response he offered a once only refund of $75 with the condition attached that if I accept we would also keep our feedback. I had made one final proposal of a $100 refund and then I would leave him either neutral or no feedback, my choice.

There was never much of a showing of any real remorse on his part IMO and I had been steadfast in telling him that I would be leaving him honest and accurate feedback to reflect his actions throughout the entire matter, with the exception stated in my last counter proposal.

Initially I had asked for a 20% refund ($125) with my pledge to him that I would be satisfied and leave positive feedback accordingly. This line of reasoning on my part seems to constitute extortion in his view as he accused me of such in his second to last response.

Now it appears he will not be willing to do any of the options we had previously discussed. As things stand right now it looks to me as if he will be allowed to end up unscathed in the whole incident and face no consequences for his words and actions.

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...throw me a frickin' bone here, people...

I know it is of no value but honesty, trust and good faith will keep your path to the right way of doing things venerable. Those without honesty and morality will only break you down if you let them. Your good mojo index is rising and something good will come your way. I am sorry that things could not be worked out to keep a good taste in your mouth.

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"This is the way that pop ends, Not with a BANG but with a box set whose fourth disc you never get around to playing” - Simon Reynolds

"My guitar wants to kill your Mama" - Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention

Some people are just plain unreasonable, and some downright dishonest. Luckily in my online dealings I rarely come across these weasels. Seems to me $100 could have averted a problem and your documentation and patience should have been an indication to the seller that you were seriously unhappy and not about to just "take it".

As I said, Ebay almost always will come down on your side - the thing is your choice will probably be to keep it as is or return for full refund plus shipping - rarely will there be middle ground (from what I've heard). I'd be inclined after this run around to just send the dang thing back and leave negative feedback. If you keep it you'll end up re-living this rather unsavory experience every time you see the guitar. I'm sad to hear it's gone pear shaped on you Iceman.

My thoughts about the guitar itself have not really changed throughout this entire incident. I still think it is a nice guitar and I WILL be keeping it no matter the outcome. It still will bring joy to my ears hearing it played and no amount of grief in how I came to own it will ever change that. I can seperate out that portion of the equation quite easily.

My point of contention in this whole experience has been only with the seller. Knowing that he was getting sage advice from an experienced seller (Dr. Dave) was a very reassuring early sign for me. Realizing that he had decided to ignore that advice was only the first red flag. Not getting full answers from him to to repeated questions or completely avoiding others only served to intensify doubts that were creeping into the process. I suppose you would have to be able to read all of our correspondence chronologically and in it's context to be where I am now in my belief that the seller knows he pulled an "oops, my bad" but still doesn't seem to want to admit if fully by taking the proper action to bring it to an ending that is satisfactory for me.

In the end it became a matter of whose opinion of the true value of the guitar is correct. I had it looked at independently for condition and appraised value by others who make these instruments their livelihood. He had gotten a single offer of $550 from one music store he took it to before putting it up on ebay. My final compromise to him was at $525 which was the average of the appraisals I had gotten and right in the middle of what I initially asked for back and his offer.

Yeah, I suppose I could have just chalked it up to bad luck but I guess I am happier being right than getting back what he offered.

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...throw me a frickin' bone here, people...

You're really supposed to only have two options with an auction purchase... send it back if you think it was misrepresented, or keep it... this third option of 'getting a partial refund' is a gray area, and a slippery slope. As a sometimes seller, I would not want people asking for partial refunds, I've already had ebay and paypal fees deducted from the final sale price, and it would make me feel blackmailed to refund part of the already agreed on final price.

A nice guitar is a nice guitar, regardless of how many dings or scuffs on it. Even if the seller was a newbie, you are not. I would say keep it if you're attached to it, or send it back if you can't sleep at night. Mike.

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Electra Guitar Videos ===> http://www.youtube.com/user/mjm33mjm?feature=watch

I agree with you Mike and I am sure the seller feels that way as well. Blackmail is IMO too ugly a word to attach to something that in the end is as insignificant as this.

I guess this is the single biggest flaw with the ebay business model. I had no problem sticking to the price I agreed to as he had his money from me in less than 72 hours from the auction ending. Once the guitar finally arrived and did not come close to meeting the condition he claimed it was no longer the guitar I agreed to buy. Once he finally admitted he indeed had misrepresented the condition I did what I think any reasonable person would do. Instead of relying on my own opinion of value I sought out independent opinions and came to a middle point in that range of values.

Admittance of an error on one hand (deliberate or not), but refusal to accept consequences for the same on the other hand equals something more in the end than "I feel bad you're dissapointed, but hey, here's $75 as long as you agree by taking it that you won't let anyone else know what I did wrong."

Of course I could never see you selling a guitar on ebay or anywhere else without being totally upfront on condition, issues and the like. This guy could do that, apparently.

But I will sleep good tonight as I do most every night. It still makes a very comforting combination of sounds when my wife plays it and that is what counts the most.

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...throw me a frickin' bone here, people...

Ice...I've sold thousands of guitars, etc over the years....quite a few online and shipped. My descriptions are accurate, however....not down to the polishing scratches in most cases. I'll write good, excellent, near mint, as new, etc....and put it on a scale of 1-10, describe the action and tone as best I can, non original parts if I know. If there are dents, scrapes, dings I'll describe those also. I take lots of photos and expect folks to look closely at those, then if there are any questions, I'll answer them to the best of my ability.

I do expect folks to do their own research on a particular model they are interested in. I've bought guitars online that had major problems not mentioned in the descriptions. Since I'm able to fix or live with them, I usually just keep the guitar and move on.

Now occasionally I'll come across a nit picking buyer who wants to know everything about every blemish anywhere on the guitar....a perfectionist, I guess. I've gotten to the point now that I'll offer a total refund on the price of the guitar + shipping immediately. I refuse to go over every used/vintage instrument with a magnifying glass and detail every flaw found for someone. Those folks always look for something that I missed and ask for a partial refund.

I don't like partial refunds because the amount is always in question between two parties.

I'd keep the guitar with or without a refund at any amount. In the long run, it'll all average out for you...just a small bump in the road. And there aren't that many times that they come along for the average guy. Keep your chin up.

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JD's Electras

Well put JD. A partial/token refund would seem to be in order but that can often become a sticking point and send you back to square one with a "take it or leave it" ending. I've been on both ends and unless something is terribly misrepresented I'll chalk stuff up to the perils of buying online. Would I ask for a partial refund? Yup. Would I keep the guitar if I didn't get one? Yup.

I know that's your plan as well, but it's now awaiting a ruling by ebay on what exactly? My understanding would be they will either award you full refund including shipping back or nothing. I don't think they can impose or enforce a partial refund from a seller.

I went through this when buying a Vantage a few years ago. I thought I was dealing with an hones seller as they revealed some flaws. They missed (covered up in one case) several more finish problems, a bent tuner, a frozen tuner and a cracked bridge. These were flaws that did not show in the pics but you could not tune the guitar without finding them. I aksed for the cost of the parts to repair the two tuners and the bridge. They were very nice but did not send the refund. Then they ignored my e-mails. When I complained to e-bay they flamed me. When I sent them copies of all e-mails and the original ad they sent the money and withdrew the feedback.

It did leave a bad taste in my mouth but that faded. Give it time and you will be happy you have the guitar.

My two cents: I always fall back to the principal that something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If a buyer and a seller can't agree upon a price, then the sale doesn't happen.

In my ebay dispute, the seller claimed that the guitar had no issues and "did not have a single scratch on it." When it arrived, I was disappointed to find numerous scratches, finish cracks, chipped headstock, and cracked binding (it also had issues with electronics, but those things could be fixed). It was (and is) a nice guitar, but the seller significantly misrepresented its condition. On the basis of that description, I (and presumably everyone else) bid much higher than I would have if the seller had described the guitar accurately.

In my opinion, that left 2 reasonable outcomes: return the guitar for a full refund (including shipping) or find a price correction that buyer and seller agree upon. Now in my situation, the seller refused to communicate (other than to send insults). Since ebay tracks correspondence that occurs through the dispute process, there was a clear record of my attempts to reach one of these 2 outcomes... and a similar record of the seller's refusal to communicate (other than the name-calling). One of the options ebay gave me was to list the amount I wanted for a partial refund, if I would consider keeping the guitar. It was a long (several month) process, but in the end I got my partial refund awarded by ebay.

Now if the seller had been willing to communicate, I also would have been ok with an explanation that the guitar was worth more to him than the amount I was willing to pay based on the refund I requested (although I suppose that is why reserve price is a selling option). In that case, it would be reasonable for the seller to demand that I pack the guitar back up in its original packing and ship it back to him. Had that occurred, I would expect a full refund, including shipping.

I read the description of your x940 when it was listed. Assuming I'm remembering correctly, the seller was trying to pass it off as mint or at least near mint. That sort of description is meant to jack up the price... which is fair, if the description is accurate. Based on your description of the actual condition, it seems like the seller's description was more than just a few minor finish scratches off from the truth. I'd call that significantly misrepresenting the guitar.

Now the only question is, what is the guitar worth to you? If the seller doesn't agree to that price, I think it is fair for him to ask you to return the guitar and give you a full refund. He's welcome to try finding another buyer who values the guitar as much as he does.

Trying to remember exactly how the seller described the guitar was driving me nuts, so I looked it up...

I want to state right now that it was not my intention to stir up any ugly memories for anyone with this thread, I do realize it has turned into something of a vent for me, but I don't want anybody's blood pressure forming a conga line or anything.

Ebay has now stated that I should repack, ship back with delivery confirmation and full insurance, and wait 72 hours for a full refund. That is how I can "allow them to hold the seller accountable". They state that at this time only the seller can agree to a partial refund and said it in such a way that it made me think that they must not realize I already know that.

I did receive a seperate email from another branch of their CS department stating that beginning sometime after the middle of June of this year they are implementing a policy change that may allow them to begin issuing partial refunds from a seller to buyers in cases like mine.

Big help that is now. Oh, and as I feared return costs are on me as well. Thanks, but no thanks.

Not certain when the end will actually come but this I do know...
If you see me at EF '12 bet your bottom dollar that this x940 will be there too.

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...throw me a frickin' bone here, people...

JD,

If I am coming off as a nit-picker on this one I do apologize to you. I think you realize that I'm not as the x110 you sold me is the quintissential definition of an excellent transaction.

1 reasonable seller + 1 knowledgeable buyer + 1 sweet axe fully disclosed = NIRVANA!

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...throw me a frickin' bone here, people...